How to put ZIF Drives in the Karma: a guide

M0tah

2008-04-19, 15:20 #31

Member since Dec 2007 · 85 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

In reply to post ID 13291

Yep, looks exactly like the one I used.

cheque_some 2008-07-08, 11:01 #32

Member since Jun 2007 · 4 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

Just to confirm, that adapter should work with any drive with a ZIF connector, not just Toshiba or Hitachi drives, correct?

M0tah

2008-07-14, 21:01 #33

Member since Dec 2007 · 85 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

It should, though to my knowledge it hasn't been tested on drives other than the Toshibas and Hitachis. If you try it let us know how it turns out!

SFsorrow 2008-09-07, 21:01 #34

Member since Feb 2008 · 4 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

I'm almost about to jump onto this Zif drive bandwagon as my original HDD is starting to freeze on me at an even greater rate then before. My concern is maximizing battery life while I'm looking at keeping my prices as low as possible. I can find 20gig C4K60 drives for under $30 shipped on ebay and I know they are 5mm think.
Any recommendations for my choice of batteries? I've found what appears to be a clone of the original here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fit-MP3-Rio-Karma-20GB-battery-2200-mA…

Would this work with the smaller C4k60 drive?
Thanks
SFsorrow

edit:
Ok, correct me if I am wrong here but the stock HDD is 7mm thick? So if I would actually gain about 2mm of space inside the Karma by swapping out to a C4K60 Slim 20gig drive. How much of that would I loose to the zif adapter?

This post was edited on 2008-09-07, 23:14 by SFsorrow.

M0tah

2008-09-09, 18:11 #35

Member since Dec 2007 · 85 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

Yes, the C4k60 slim is 2mm slimmer than the stock HDD, which is 7mm high (you can find the datasheet for the stock HDD here). The problem is in utilizing the extra space. The ZIF adapter will take up almost half the space where the HDD used to be (there's a little space underneath the adapter once it's plugged in, but you probably won't be able to fit anything there). I just put the battery next to the adapter and then the HDD on top of the adapter and battery, but I used a 8mm high HDD instead of a 5mm high one. If a 5mm drive was used instead, another battery could fit behind the drive where the original battery was placed. I could only find one battery that has the right dimensions to do so (see this post) and you'd need to get two of them, connect them in parallel, and mess around with affixing a battery protection board to them. There's probably a replacement battery with the right dimensions (that already has the protection board), but it's tough to find them because typically the dimensions of the battery aren't advertised, only the product in which the battery fits.

For the battery next to the ZIF adapter, I'd recommend getting a replacement battery for a Sony Clie NX70VL, since it's the same dimensions as the one I used but has a battery protection board attached to it already.

The only way that I can think of to use a stock sized battery is to do something like MrNibbles did and modify the case so there's more room in there.

mocelet 2008-09-11, 14:41 #36

Member since Nov 2007 · 41 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

Have you considered a CF based replacement storage solution? (See other thread here). I have a 32GB CF card in my Karma and it works better than the HD ever did.

xafier 2008-12-18, 08:18 #37

Member since Jan 2007 · 6 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

In reply to post ID 12086

Is this the adapter I would need to connect a Toshiba zif hard drive?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.…?ViewItem&item=2…

M0tah

2008-12-18, 15:44 #38

Member since Dec 2007 · 85 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

The adapter doesn't have the exact same design as the one I used, but it should work alright as long as you bypass the voltage regulator.

xafier 2008-12-19, 10:52 #39

Member since Jan 2007 · 6 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

I'm a bit of an electronics novice... how do I figure out what piece on the board is the voltage regulator? To be honest I'll probably get someone at work to do it for me, but it would be nice to know which part needs bypassing.

I've ordered the adapter and I'm thinking of using this drive:

Toshiba MK1214GAH - 120Gb

120Gb should go a long long way

gomtuu 2008-12-20, 15:56 #40

Member since Aug 2008 · 47 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

@xafier: There's a single-platter 5mm 120GB 1.8" drive: MK1231GAL Found in the wild here for $180.

My stock battery is bulging like crazy, so I took my Karma apart and I'm thinking about trying this mod.

I've been looking around for IDE to ZIF adapters to see what's out there. First, I found this one, but it's the wrong gender. (Edit: M0tah pointed out that it has 50 pin-holes, so it's not suitable.) There are gender changers, but that would take up more room. This adapter doesn't have any electronics on it at all, though, so there's no voltage regulator to bypass. It also means that IDE-to-ZIF cables should be possible without the need for a space-consuming PCB. Those of you with ZIF cable experience: how hard do you think it would be to split up the wires and attach them to something like this?

Next, I found this Addonics AAT18ZIF25 adapter. It looks like it would require a voltage regulator bypass, but I think it would have a lower profile because it doesn't actually have a ZIF socket, just a very short ZIF cable attached directly to the PCB. Maybe the cable could be extended? Those of you who've handled one: how hard do you think it would be to attach two ZIF cables together?

Then, I found this. The orange ribbon cable there looks almost like an IDE-to-ZIF cable, but I don't think it is, otherwise this guy's mod would be pointless. He calls it "the stock Fujitsu cable." I'm guessing the non-IDE end is a proprietary connector for that laptop... Close, but probably not what we need.

This post was edited on 2008-12-20, 21:14 by gomtuu.

M0tah

2008-12-20, 20:15 #41

Member since Dec 2007 · 85 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

In reply to post #39

Quote by xafier on 2008-12-19, 10:52:
I'm a bit of an electronics novice... how do I figure out what piece on the board is the voltage regulator? To be honest I'll probably get someone at work to do it for me, but it would be nice to know which part needs bypassing

I've circled the voltage regulator in this picture.

Quote by gomtuu:
I've been looking around for IDE to ZIF adapters to see what's out there. First, I found this one, but it's the wrong gender. There are gender changers, but that would take up more room. This adapter doesn't have any electronics on it at all, though, so there's no voltage regulator to bypass.

There's a problem with that adapter though. It's converting ZIF to the 50 pin connector commonly used on CF cards and older 1.8" Toshiba HDDs, not the 44 pin connector used in the Karma and on 2.5" PATA laptop HDDs. That's the reason it has no voltage regulator - both of the interfaces use 3.3v.

Quote by gomtuu:
Those of you with ZIF cable experience: how hard do you think it would be to split up the wires and attach them to something like this?

I know I wouldn't try to do something like that, but something similar has been done before. Take a look at this.

Quote by gomtuu:
I think it would have a lower profile because it doesn't actually have a ZIF socket, just a very short ZIF cable attached directly to the PCB. Maybe the cable could be extended? Those of you who've handled one: how hard do you think it would be to attach two ZIF cables together?

Yeah, it would definitely have a lower profile, both from not having the ZIF socket and from having a slightly different design than the one I used. Similar to the adapter that xafier's going to use, the IDE connector is a right angle connector, so the adapter would sit flush against the Karma's mainboard. The adapter I used had the IDE connector placed so the top row of pins connected to the top of the PCB and the bottom row of pins connected to the bottom of the PCB, so when the adapter was connected to the Karma's HDD connector it was above the mainboard by a few mm.
I also wouldn't want to try connecting two ZIF cables together. Although it's probably possible, it's just too tedious and I'd imagine it would be easy to mess up. Also, here's two profile views (front and back) of the ZIF adapter I used if you're interested.

Quote by gomtuu:
Then, I found this. The orange ribbon cable there looks almost like an IDE-to-ZIF cable, but I don't think it is, otherwise this guy's mod would be pointless. He calls it "the stock Fujitsu cable." I'm guessing the non-IDE end is a proprietary connector for that laptop... Close, but probably not what we need.

This is the same as the above adapter - the IDE end of the cable isn't the right connector for the Karma (50 pin CF instead of 44 pin laptop).
Have you seen this thread? There is a cable that does what is needed, but you can only get one bundled with a HDD and caddy.

gomtuu 2008-12-20, 22:02 #42

Member since Aug 2008 · 47 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

Quote by "M0tah":
There's a problem with that adapter though. It's converting ZIF to the 50 pin connector commonly used on CF cards and older 1.8" Toshiba HDDs

Ah, didn't count the pins. Thanks.

Quote by "M0tah":
I know I wouldn't try to do something like that, but something similar has been done before. Take a look at this.

Hmmm... Ugly and fragile, but not impossible. Still, I don't think I'd actually do it.

Quote by "M0tah":
Yeah, it would definitely have a lower profile, both from not having the ZIF socket and from having a slightly different design than the one I used.

If only it had a longer cable! Sigh...

Quote by "M0tah":
I also wouldn't want to try connecting two ZIF cables together. Although it's probably possible, it's just too tedious and I'd imagine it would be easy to mess up.

I was picturing two cables basically just taped together with the contacts touching (they do have exposed contacts, right?), which would be fairly easy, but probably unreliable. I guess to get it to work well (avoid shorts, etc), you'd have to cut them up and then connect and insulate 1-2 leads at a time...

Quote by "M0tah":
This is the same as the above adapter - the IDE end of the cable isn't the right connector for the Karma (50 pin CF instead of 44 pin laptop).

Ah. Again, didn't notice. Thanks.

Quote by "M0tah":
Have you seen this thread? There is a cable that does what is needed, but you can only get one bundled with a HDD and caddy.

Wow, that looks perfect. It even has the 90° angle built in... Why do they have to tease us like that? Double sigh...

Thanks for the info, M0tah! I'll keep looking to see what else I can find.

gomtuu 2008-12-20, 22:23 #43

Member since Aug 2008 · 47 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

I found a company called Lumenlab that sells ZIF cables (A.K.A. Flat Flexible Cables) that include a clamp for joining two cables. That might work! The clamp is probably about the same thickness as the on-board ZIF connectors on these adapters, but if you used the Addonics adapter with its little stub of a ZIF cable, then the clamp would be beside the PCB, not stacked on top of it. Might buy 1mm or so. That all depends on the clamp's thickness, though, which I'm not sure of.

Here's a better picture.

I'll investigate more tomorrow.

gomtuu 2008-12-21, 11:08 #44

Member since Aug 2008 · 47 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

Come to think of it, you should be able to join two ZIF cables by sticking both of them in a ZIF socket (similar to the one used on these adapters) with the contacts facing each other, right? Here's a ZIF socket that's 2mm thick. And here's a 4-inch 40-pin 0.5mm-pitch FFC. Those parts plus the Addonics adapter, a 5mm hard drive, and a stock-sized battery should fit in the Karma without expanding the case, I think...

I want to try this, but it'll have to wait until January.

Update: I've ordered all the parts, but since I'm going home for Christmas and New Year's, the install will still have to wait.

This post was edited on 2008-12-22, 22:00 by gomtuu.

gomtuu 2009-01-03, 19:09 #45

Member since Aug 2008 · 47 posts
Group memberships: Members

Show profile ·

Link to this post

The parts have arrived, and I took some photos. Here's what I've discovered so far:

1. The Addonics adapter doesn't work the way I thought it would. I thought its PCB would rest against the Karma's mainboard, but it plugs in upside-down, so instead it floats about 5.5mm above the mainboard. That would leave just enough clearance to sandwich the hard drive between the two boards, except the Addonics PCB has electronics on it that take up 1-2mm of that space. Maybe that's not a big deal, though, since I have to remove the voltage regulator anyway.

2. There's not enough space for the hard drive between the the adapter's IDE connector's "elbows" and the Karma's volume switches. The hard drive would have to sit crooked, with one side resting against the Karma's mainboard and one side resting on the volume switches, and that would take up a few extra mm. I don't know if any PCB-based adapter would be able to overcome that: When I lay the new hard drive on the mainboard and butt it up against the volume switches, there's only about 2.5mm left between the Karma's female IDE connector and the side of the hard drive.

3. The IDE connector on the adapter has pins that stick out the bottom of the PCB. Those would probably need to be ground down to make room for the battery. And I'm not sure if it would even be a good idea to do that.

4. I don't think I can get two ZIF cables to fit into the ZIF socket (the one I was going to use to join the Addonics adapter's ZIF stub to the ZIF patch cable I bought). The ZIF cables I'm using have a layer of backing on the ends to reinforce them, though. I remember seeing ZIF cables without that backing when I was researching parts... That might work.

So, no luck yet.