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ipods are gapless...
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mech_e 2006-10-10, 20:18 #151
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In reply to post ID 3734
I like my new nano.  I don't have any gapless albums on there, but there are no gaps.  I just wish I could find a suitable dock for it.  The Kurodock is hot, but its only for the first gen.
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LycoLoco 2006-10-10, 21:50 #152
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Damn, I wish someone had done something like that before...

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;-)
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nudel 2006-10-11, 02:35 #153
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In reply to post ID 3734
Quote by MacDancer:
That's all well and good, but working within the MP3 codec, the only way to do gapless is via tags. MP3 technically is not gapless. However, AAC is by nature a gapless codec, if I understand correctly, therefore kludges like exact length tags shouldn't be necessary and only go to show that Apple with their endless engineers, countless coders, and let us not forget, massive mounds of moolah, still couldn't implement true gapless on their own proprietary codec.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think gapless AAC is any different to gapless MP3 or Vorbis. All three formats have a frame size and will pad the last frame with silence which has to be removed. I don't think AAC is a naturally gapless codec and, like MP3 (but unlike Ogg Vorbis), the tag required to do gapless playback wasn't defined as part of the standard. Someone had to invent a tag for AAC the same as one was invented for MP3.

I just played back two .m4a AAC files in Foobar 2000 0.8 (CBA upgrading to 0.9, heh) and they didn't play gaplessly, there was a slight click which sounds like silence at the end of a frame. My guess is that either FB2k's AAC decoder doesn't support the (new?) gapless tag or iTunes 7 doesn't write the gapless tag to the files, storing the information in the iTunes Database instead. Or both. I'm not sure, TBH, but that indicates that AAC isn't gapless by default.

Quote from one of the Ahead people on hydrogen audio (from here):
Same goes for any transform based codec (MP3/AAC/WMA/MPC/OGG/AC3/...) - they are all working on "frame-by-frame" basis.

Difference is that in standards like MP3 or AAC - "gapless" tags are not really part of the ISO specification of the standard (I always wondered why they didn't think about this, at least in the MP4 container) - and, some other formats - that are not international standards, like Vorbis - have this tag in their original specs.

So, basically - since all Ogg/Vorbis players are based on the reference Vorbis decoder (floating point or Tremor) one would expect that they decode file with exact number of samples.

With AAC/MP3 - one have to take care that his decoder reads correct tags - which is sometimes not the case, especially when it comes to DSP/Hardware decoders written by third parties.

We at Ahead will support any licensee of the Nero Digital Audio (AAC) decoder with what is needed for gapless in the decoder (FAAD2) - however, implementator of a device must ensure that there is no additional delay between file playback, etc..
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nilepez 2006-10-11, 10:18 #154
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In reply to post ID 3725
Quote by nudel:
Quote by nilepez:
Here's the question: can you put songs on your iPod using an older version of iTunes? 
When you use that older version, does the iPod play back DSOTM without gaps?

If the answer is no, then it sounds like they're using something to work-aroud the issue for now. 

To do gapless the iPod relies on tags which are only written by iTunes 7. That's all they are. Tags.

Saying it's not proper gapless because iTunes 6 doesn't do gapless is the same as claiming that LAME MP3 doesn't do gapless properly. If you encode DSOTM with an older version of LAME then it won't be gapless because only newer verisons of LAME include the exact track-length tag required to do gapless playback. Exactly the same with iTunes 6 vs 7. That's all iTunes 7 is doing, writing a tag. There's no magic or hacks or trickery or kludges or Steve Jobs feeling up anyone's buttocks going on. It's proper gapless.

I just did some searching, and I think you may be correct.  It looks like gapless AAC may have been something added by Ahead and perhaps Foobar.  Hopefully they're using the same tags as those encoders (my phone uses AAC ringers, and I found Ahead's encoder better than iTunes, though ringers are encoded at very low bitrates).

Either way, I think you're correct it is not a kludge (and hopefully it's not proprietary).
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MrCookie989 2006-10-11, 14:19 #155
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DSOTM works for me.  I've had problems, but I traced them back to a bad rip to FLAC.  Don't recall Tommy having problems either....all mys tuff is ogg vorbis.

Well, here's the thing, I have 2 Karma's, one that I bought when it was first in stores (2003?) and one that I bought refurb'd from a Rio outlet a few months ago. Both could do gapless very near perfectly, only a handful of albums had problems. However, once time wore on and as my Karma got more full, DSOTM and the others started having a gap-blip using mp3 or ogg. But I found that once I formatted and only placed a few gapless albums on it everything worked fine again. I suspect its some sort of problem with the HD getting old. But the odd thing is that anything FLAC was gapless no matter how full my Karmas were...meh.
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nudel 2006-10-11, 17:36 #156
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Quote by MrCookie989:
Well, here's the thing, I have 2 Karma's, one that I bought when it was first in stores (2003?) and one that I bought refurb'd from a Rio outlet a few months ago. Both could do gapless very near perfectly, only a handful of albums had problems. However, once time wore on and as my Karma got more full, DSOTM and the others started having a gap-blip using mp3 or ogg. But I found that once I formatted and only placed a few gapless albums on it everything worked fine again. I suspect its some sort of problem with the HD getting old. But the odd thing is that anything FLAC was gapless no matter how full my Karmas were...meh.

It could have been the HDD becoming fragmented as it become full, meaning a lot more seeking was required to read the files, which could cause gapless to fail if things don't happen quickly enough. Odd that FLAC worked though since FLAC files are larger. Quicker to decode but if the HDD is the bottleneck then decode speed shouldn't be a big factor (I assume) but on the flipside it's possile that enough FLAC data was available at the last minute that it could be decoded in time. I don't know enough to be sure about any of these ideas, but they're possibilities, I guess.
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RubenNYC 2006-10-11, 17:51 #157
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On that note, any idea how battery life on the Karma decoding FLAC compares with decoding Vorbis?  The main reason I avoid using FLAC is because each song would more than fill the 16 MB on-board memory, causing additional HDD action to play each song...or am my misguided in my thinking of how Karma works?
radish 2006-10-11, 18:36 #158
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My understanding is that AAC has fixed length frames and padding, like MP3. Vorbis & FLAC, on the other hand, have variable length frames so hacks are not required.
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Toby 2006-10-11, 19:02 #159
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Subject: OK, I'm ashamed...
Apple has broken me.  I just ordered an 80GB along with a new headunit for my truck (Alpine 9857).  At least I won't have to use iTunes.  Anybody want to buy a few Karmas (one in full working order, and two with b0rked hold switches) and/or docks?  Transcoding all my music from FLAC to 320kbps MP3 should fit in just over 40GB.
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nudel 2006-10-11, 19:26 #160
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In reply to post #157
Quote by RubenNYC:
On that note, any idea how battery life on the Karma decoding FLAC compares with decoding Vorbis?  The main reason I avoid using FLAC is because each song would more than fill the 16 MB on-board memory, causing additional HDD action to play each song...or am my misguided in my thinking of how Karma works?

I think one of the Rio devs said that while the HDD spins up more frequently to read data that is more than offset by the greatly decreased CPU usage, so FLAC actually uses very little power compared to Vorbis. I can't remember how it compared to MP3.

On Rockbox FLAC is one of the most battery-efficient codecs.
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mech_e 2006-10-11, 19:44 #161
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Nudel: Get rockbox on my 2g nano!!!!

This post brought to you by Jim Beam and Canada Dry Ginger Ale (mostly the Beam, though).
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RubenNYC 2006-10-11, 19:47 #162
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In reply to post #160
Quote by nudel:
Quote by RubenNYC:
On that note, any idea how battery life on the Karma decoding FLAC compares with decoding Vorbis?  The main reason I avoid using FLAC is because each song would more than fill the 16 MB on-board memory, causing additional HDD action to play each song...or am my misguided in my thinking of how Karma works?

I think one of the Rio devs said that while the HDD spins up more frequently to read data that is more than offset by the greatly decreased CPU usage, so FLAC actually uses very little power compared to Vorbis. I can't remember how it compared to MP3.

On Rockbox FLAC is one of the most battery-efficient codecs.

Sounds good.  Thanks for that.  I'm still leaning toward Vorbis since I listen to my Karma in the car as often as anywhere else.  I'll give FLAC another try and see how it performs in the car while driving the New Jersey Turnpike.
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LycoLoco 2006-10-12, 06:21 #163
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In reply to post #159
Quote by Toby:
Anybody want to buy a few Karmas (one in full working order, and two with b0rked hold switches) and/or docks?
Why couldn't you have been offering this last week when I bought one from eBay for $75 shipped (which STILL hasn't gotten here...). I'd trust your karma more than a random guy from eBay's.
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RubenNYC 2006-10-12, 06:55 #164
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Karma playing FLAC performed flawlessly driving on the Turnpike and through downtown Jersey City.  So far I give it 2 thumbs up.  Plus now I don't feel like I'm wasting half of my disk space with emptiness. :)
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Toby 2006-10-12, 15:54 #165
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In reply to post #163
Quote by LycoLoco:
Why couldn't you have been offering this last week when I bought one from eBay for $75 shipped (which STILL hasn't gotten here...). I'd trust your karma more than a random guy from eBay's.
Well, if it doesn't work out and you cancel it, let me know.  Once I get the iPod set up, I'll be inventorying everything I've got (I'm not sure how many docks I've got, but it's at least 5 or 6) so I can list it on eBay.  I'll give this place first dibs, though.
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